Episode 29 - Rupert Guinness

  

  

Author and sports writer Rupert Guinness joins us in this episode as we talk about his thoughts on the reasons and effects of mental health within the sporting community. We also discuss how Crossing the Line Sport helps athletes who are in difficult situations and some examples of events we can learn from.

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In this episode we cover: 

  • Rupert’s extensive and interesting journey to following his passion and getting to where he is now.
  • Rupert shares the achievements and awards that he is most proud of.
  • Where he sees the future of racing heading.
  • The mental health issues surrounding athletes in sport and how Crossing the Line can help support them.
  • The story of Richie Porte and the things we can learn from his experience.

Links


      Transcript:

      FELICITY:

      This is episode 29. Welcome to the All Torque podcast, where each episode we interview an inspiring person to share their story with you. I'm your host, Felicity Dales, managing director of Body Torque.

      I have here today Rupert Guinness, a sports writer and author based in Sydney, who lived for nine years in Europe, Belgium and France from 1987 to 1996. He writes for a variety of sports publications, websites and organisations in Australia and internationally, and can also shoot and formulate video interviews and stories. Rupert has written and writes on a variety of sports, ranging from rugby union and rugby league to tennis, netball, motor racing (F1 and V8s), sailing (America's Cup and Sydney to Hobart), boxing, cricket, triathlon and Olympics. That includes rowing, cycling, athletics, canoeing, sailing, weightlifting and water polo.

      You covered the Rugby World Cup twice in 2003 and 2007; the Olympic Games four times in 1992, 2000, 2008 and 2012; and the Tour de France 30 times since 1987; as well as every other major bike race many times and most of the above mentioned sports within Australia and events around the world. He has written 15 books, the latest being ‘Power of the Pedal - The Story of Australian Cycling’ and ‘Overlander - One Man's Epic Race to Cross Australia’, which came out this year. Other books include ‘The Tour - Behind the Scenes of Cadel Evans' Tour de France’, which was an inside story about his historic 2011 Tour de France victory, the first by an Australian; a book on rugby union, ‘George Smith: The Biography’, and another on a World War II subject titled ‘The Flying Grocer - The Remarkable Story of Keith Bennett DFC and a Dutch girl's letter that would change the war’.

      Welcome Rupert.

      RUPERT:

      Thanks, Felicity, for having me.

      FELICITY:

      Lovely to have you. Your background includes starting as a sports reporter for The Australian, from 1983 to '85, finishing your journalism cadetship in Melbourne covering sport. You left to pursue competitive triathlon ambitions and trained full-time, and after that, you were a general news reporter for Melbourne Sun News for a year but left again to pursue a triathlon for the Hawaiian Ironman in October 1985 and '86 and resumed freelancing, 1987 to '89 as editor-in-chief of Winning Bicycle Racing Illustrated and a Triathlete UK magazine with Offpress in Belgium. From 1989 to '92 for the three years in Brussels, Belgium working on a variety of publications plus SBS Television, Eurosport and Screensport and La Cinq in France, including a live eight-hours-a-day guide commentary on the 1989 World Cycling Championships. 1992 to '96 in France, you held the position as European correspondent for VeloNews USA, plus a variety of other publications on various sports along with the Olympic Games in Barcelona.

      Returning home to Australia and freelanced 1997 as editor for Total Sports magazine with Pacific Publications for a year and won the Cycling Australia media award for the Tour de France. 1998 to 2002, sports reporter for the Daily News and received a Walkley Awards commendation for sports coverage. That was in the year 2000 for the Sydney-to-Hobart yacht race where you crewed on-board the line honours winning maxi-yacht Nicorette, then senior sports reporter for the Daily Telegraph News from 2003 to 2006, also as a sports journalist for Sydney Morning Herald with Fairfax Media for nine years, which in this period, you won a special commendation for the 2011 Australian Sports Commission Media Awards for coverage on Cadel Evans' 2011 Tour de France win.

      To multimedia producer with Crossing the Line Sport for a year and for the past two years, being a freelance writer on cycling, rugby for ESPN.com, Ride magazine, Cyclist Australia-New Zealand, and now writing a book on rowing, the 150th anniversary of Sydney Rowing Club.

      You're a former triathlete, club cyclist and elite lightweight rower, but you still ride and run in marathons. With such an extensive sporting career as a reporter, Rupert, and journalist, and a prolific writer, tell us about your journey from how you got started to where you are now.

      RUPERT:

      Well, just hearing all that, it gives you a nice reminder of the opportunities I've seized in my life. I'm 56 now, so I was just listening to all that, Felicity, and I really couldn't think of anything that I regretted doing, that's for sure, but..

      FELICITY:

      Yes, it's amazing, Rupert. It's phenomenal actually, it's an epic journey.

      RUPERT:

      Funnily enough though, I wouldn't say any of it's been planned or structured. I've very much led my life on the whim of a hunch or a feel in a desire to do something when something pops up. You've made mention of a couple times when I left certain jobs to go and train full-time for triathlons, for example, and I know that my parents, I know my father would have lost a lot of hair during those times wondering if I'm throwing away a career, but I think in the whole package of things, it's my life. There's no secret I've had obviously a strong passion for sport and in participating in sport. I guess I'm very lucky really, that from where it began back in those early '80s to where it is now, that I've been managed to be in a vacuum of where the two things, my career and my passion, both go together. Which I guess is what we're trying to do in our lives, to find passion with what we do with our careers.

      FELICITY:

      Absolutely, and you've managed to do that in a variety of ways. I think you'd be one of the few people that would know so many people in the sporting industry, having covered so many aspects of sport. It's not just one or two domains, you've done quite a lot of verticals in sport, haven't you?

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, certainly. Certainly, Felicity. The people you meet, you meet some fantastic people, you meet some friendly rogues, I would suggest. You meet some pretty nasty people too, like sport life, all life, every aspect..

      FELICITY:

      Shows up.

      RUPERT:

      This'll be the challenging stuff, inspiring stuff, the tragic stuff, we've got corruption as well. The whole gamut of it. But as a journalist or as a writer, you certainly, it gives you a great platform to experience about, I guess at the end of the day, people and their challenges and how they confront them.

      FELICITY:

      How they navigate their way around it and move on.

      RUPERT:

      Exactly, exactly. And there's never one pathway that's the perfect pathway for any one person, let alone a whole bunch of people. So being able to see all these pathways, sort of follow, and people do trip up. People pick themselves up and some people just manage to divide through life seemingly. So, with all success unfolding behind them.

      FELICITY:

      You've received seven honours and awards for your work and contribution. Is there one that stands out for you above the others and why would that be?

      RUPERT:

      Oh, that's a good question. It's a good question. I'd have to say, I was very happy about the Walkley's commendation for my coverage of the 2000 Sydney-to-Hobart yacht race. I crewed on a yacht, one of the maxis called Nicorette that actually got line honours. And I'd never sailed before, let alone.. In Sydney Harbour I did with a bunch of mates drinking beers. But not with open ocean sailing on that level. And it was a great, albeit harsh experience, but it's something I'll never forget and I had to live and breathe everything with the crew for two months in the lead-up to the race and I guess, getting that chance to be given that opportunity as a journalist to commit to that one subject, write about it, the highs and lows and then you get the commendation at the end, gives you some recognition that the work you did actually paid off through not just satisfying your editor but a general readership of the newspaper at the time obviously liked it as well. So, I was very happy about that.

      I think another one which is probably not an award but one of the books I've written, ‘The Flying Grocer’, you made mention of there, it was a book which Flying Officer Keith Bennett is my father-in-law, and he had already passed away by the time I'd written it. But it was an interesting writing experience of trying to piece together a bunch of people's stories and piece them together from families whose elder participants in the war, they didn't really have an idea of what their father had really done in the war or what their lives were. And at the end of the day, this book brought together probably seven or eight different families and it actually gave those families a chance to have some idea of what the impact of their father's role in the war was. And it is actually a positive story rather than a negative story. So, I felt really privileged to have had that chance to help those families get some semblance of understanding of what their father's role in the war was.

      FELICITY:

      Well, that sounds fascinating and great that you could actually fulfill that, actually. It's a shame that he's passed away but it's a lovely tribute.

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, yeah. Just very briefly, the story was my father-in-law was a flying officer of one of the Lancaster bombers in 460 Squadron, which was probably one of the most famous squadrons, Australian squadrons. And they were in a bomber command based in Binbrook in England. And my father-in-law hated the bombing missions that they did, they were part of the carpet bombing of Germany and areas. But that's why he never spoke about it. But at the very end of the war, there was an operation called Operation Manna, and that was where the war had been lost by the Germans and Western Holland, a lot of people were starving. Even though the Germans were still occupying Western Holland, but the war was good as over and Operation Manna was a humanitarian food drop over various cities over Holland.

      And on the second operation, as my father-in-law was coming back from Rotterdam, he came over a small little village called Ridderkerk and he made his own little package up and threw it out of the Lancaster and down below, there was the people down below grabbed the package. And there was this 18-year-old girl who grabbed the note that my father-in-law had written, just saying, "Don't worry, we're with you." And he wrote his address and name on it. And she wrote to him, and he wrote back to her, and they had this long correspondence over the next, for a long, long time.

      There was no romance there, so there was not the romantic angle, but this one piece, scrap piece of paper brought together my father-in-law and this Dutch girl and their correspondence lasted a lifetime. And it basically brought together, there was the story of her, Jannie and him, Keith. Her and her family living in this town, Ridderkerk and when they were occupied by Germans. Him and his crew, which was like his family at the time living in Binbrook. And there was these two parallel stories of how they survived through the war and lived after the war, just as importantly, and got on with their lives. And this story was all brought together by this one scrap piece of paper which we still have in our records here at home today.

      FELICITY:

      That's amazing, talk about the ripple effect and what it means, taking action or not taking action really. It's amazing how that has evolved and developed from that, like you say, one piece of paper. That's awesome.

      Beautiful story.

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't sell hundreds of thousands of copies, but I'd say at that point, the profit and gain, as I said before, just knowing that you put together a story which at the very least, gave the seven or eight families over there in Holland but also back here in Australia this, something for perpetuity that they can put on their shelves and can be passed down through future generations.

      And lot of these stories don't get told in life, and I think while I respect while veterans do find it hard to speak, and I certainly would never begrudge them for not speaking, but when there is the chance to do it, it's great to be able to show you can do it with some integrity. And that can hopefully inspire other people to perhaps tell their stories as they want to. Because there is something that can be gained and, in this day, and age, I think we can all learn from a bit of this. So why not?

      FELICITY:

      Definitely, and it also is nice for families to have a greater understanding of what the generations went through, like our history. It's nice to know about it. So that's fantastic that you've done that, and they, like you say, have got a legacy. It's created a legacy in the family, hasn't it?

      RUPERT:

      Yes, it certainly has, certainly has. And now a lot of these families have connected, families that didn't know each other as well. We don’t have postcards or where they shared, even of this day of modern technology, I still get the little postcard and Christmas card from Jannie written in her handwriting. And when I do get the chance, when I go over to Europe, I try to see her and her family.

      One other interesting little thing was I went and saw this woman, Jannie van Splunde, her name is. And I videotaped her, we went back to Ridderkerk and I went to the landmark where the package was dropped. And it was about 20 kilometres outside of Rotterdam. And she was standing on the exact spot, and I had the video camera and I just said, "Jannie, just tell us what happened." And she started recounting the day that the Lancaster bomber that Keith was in came from the horizon and I swear it was almost like this 80-year-old woman was suddenly this 18-year-old girl again. You could see the excitement in her voice, and while I was videoing her, next thing I hear is I hear someone crying behind me and I turn around and it's her daughter, Madeline, who was crying. She just said she'd never heard her mother explain the story before like this.

      So there was a lot of moments like that in the research and the writing of the book that came up. For me personally, it was just a privileged experience just to be a part in. I've just parachuted into this story and then now it's there forever, written. That's probably one of my most proudest moments, I would say, having written that book.

      FELICITY:

      Yeah, fantastic. So, with your background and also participation in cycling and having done it on a global basis, where do you see the future of cycling from now?

      RUPERT:

      Well, we could be here all day talking about that. I'll give you an abridged version.

      I see cycling in two different ways, one, there's from my professional viewpoint as a journalist and I've spent a lot of my time writing about professional road racing. I've written about track racing as well, but from professional road racing, I've obviously seen the sport change a lot. The world body, the UCI, bangs on about globalisation and the benefits of globalisation and creates all these new races all around the world, some of which have been good and some have been not so good. Expansion, not just in cycling, but in many things often comes at a cost, and I think we've seen the commercialisation and marketing of the sport has taken away some of the romance of professional cycling. That has led to certain aspects of the sport at a professional level being compromised, when I say use the word integrity. We've seen corruption, we've seen doping problems, and the likes occur. That's some of the negative side of it.

      There has been some positives through globalisation, as I said, new races are created. Australia's been a beneficiary of that with the Tour Down Under and the Cadel Evans Road Race and being World Tour races now and that's been great from an Australia point of view. So, it's not all negative, there's lots of pluses as well. And through that, we've seen the nationalities that compete at that sport are much more diverse than what they used to be in the early '80s when it was principally a European sport. So that's how that side of the sport's changed.

      But I think what's really booming in cycling now is it's probably part of it's an offshoot through the popularity of recreational cycling, but now I think we're seeing, from a health perspective, recreational cycling is so good for you. If you can ride safely that is, and then also this genre of riding the ultra-endurance riding or gravel riding even as well, going out and cycling on gravel roads rather than continually trying to find safe bitumen roads which are, generally in Australia are pretty dangerous. And one of the solutions is to go off-road and go onto these gravel rides, which Australia still has so many routes that are available to be discovered. So, I think there's a side of, the adventurist side of cycling is coming back into vogue now which is where it all began in the first place. So that's a really positive and exciting element to it.

      FELICITY:

      And getting outdoors obviously is great for everyone, so really doesn't matter which genre it is of cycling, it's just all good anyway.

      RUPERT:

      Exactly, exactly. People shouldn't be blinkered into thinking, “I just have to ride a road bike”. It's just getting out on any bike. It's not too difficult to find people now who will have more than one bike. They'll have a road bike. They'll have a gravel bike and a mountain bike. Some people would probably have too many bikes, I'd even suggest, but that's probably good for the retail industry as well, so why not?

      FELICITY:

      Well you know, we can't decide sometimes, Rupert. We might want to road ride or it could be mountain bike or could be gravel riding, you never know. You just kind of need a bike for every situation.

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, exactly, exactly. I've never even been someone who's had a lot of equipment. I've been a bit of a minimalist. But now, I've suddenly, like I've got three bikes now. I've got my mountain bike, I've got my gravel bike and my road bike. So even me as a minimalist, that causes my wife grief. She thinks I've got too much stuff. And now, I'm still always plotting and planning of what extra bit of equipment I'll get next.

      FELICITY:

      That's right, exactly.

      RUPERT:

      I sneak away and buy it and purchase it and then carry the cost of it later.

      FELICITY:

      Could always be a scheme going on then.

      You're part of Crossing the Line, which is about mental health, wellbeing and transitioning to life after sport. It aims to reduce the prevalence of mental health issues including suicide rates in the sporting community. The stigma surrounding mental health has led to a culture in the sporting world of masking issues in order not to show weakness. Athletes are afraid of being shunned by their peers and dropped from the team. This makes it hard for those in the sporting community to seek help when they need it, which in turn increases the risk of addiction, self-harm and even suicide.

      This is quite a big topic. What is your experience of athlete mental health and the expectations, that not only they have of themselves but what's expected of them during their career? Like for instance, when Richie Porte crashed in the stage nine of the Tour de France, he openly stated how hard it was with having a newborn and being away doing all the preparation, that that was difficult, not only for him but for his teammates to reset when to focus, the focus was to support him. What are your thoughts around that?

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, it's an issue, Felicity, which I think for so long was never addressed for various reasons. As you mentioned some of them there about individuals not wanting to talk about issues that they're wrestling with because they think and it's the expectation around them is that they're invincible and they're athletes and so athletes don't want to admit that they are wrestling with an issue, with mental health issues. And I think for a long time, the public, I wouldn't say deliberately, but just inadvertently just through the way that society was, wasn't allowing athletes to have that breathing space to perhaps express and show moments of what is perceived weaknesses. And I don't think it should be termed as weaknesses, but I think it's really, they're human beings. We all have, none of us are iron clad in our strengths, we all have breaking, tipping points at different times.

      While I totally appreciate in normal out-of-sport life, this is something that everybody experiences, but within sport, I think because of how much society has relied on sport to produce these powerful, uplifting moments of the fight and determination and the win and it's exacerbated the pressure that has been on athletes. Because of that, in so many sports, I'd say in all sports, particularly at elite level, athletes do find they're being in a corner of where they think there's no answer, no way out. And unfortunately, it does lead to suicide. There's various other issues, it could lead to use of illicit drugs, it can lead to various other breakdowns, domestic violence and in no way am I condoning domestic violence but a lot of these things do happen. These cases through a release of the circumstance, these athletes find themselves in.

      And the point of Crossing the Line is to, it is actually now a charity which is aiming to try and provide athletes a confidential and independent hub to one, gain and share resource of experience with each other, and also to seek various, to seek counselling and as a portal into giving them access to whatever more extensive support systems they need to help them. The idea is it is independent, so they're coming to a hub that's a hub for athletes. It's not a hub which will be gazed or monitored, won't be assessed by sports bodies or by coaches where that information can be used possibly against them.

      FELICITY:

      It's confidential.

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, yeah, it's all confidential. Obviously there's material, which is where I come into it, because I contribute with podcasts and articles. And obviously that goes online and that's out on the public. But there's other services which they can get access to which is confidential and all with a view to helping them.

      And not just the athletes, also helping coaches, because a lot of athletes become coaches, and there's a lot of very young coaches. Coaches have trouble, even not-so-young coaches, they have difficulty or challenges in how to handle these issues as well. And there are a large number who are wanting to learn as well. So, it's not blinkered where it's just for a certain type of athlete, it's just through sport becomes the platform to provide a hub for people who are involved in sport can hopefully gain from this.

      FELICITY:

      Yeah, that's fantastic. I noticed that some of the mentors there are on topics like psychology and athlete wellbeing, athlete transition, there's also anti-doping education and so different aspects that really help them with their career development in psychology as well, so there's some great mentors on the site there. And you've also got some fact sheets on the website which we'll put a link to in our show notes that actually has some things that they can relate to and read about as well to help them if there is an issue there or want to touch base with someone.

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you said, you mentioned the doping one. Yeah. Nobody condones doping, but it does happen.

      FELICITY:

      That's right.

      RUPERT:

      I think in general society, is forgiving. Everybody makes mistakes. So, I think for people who do make the mistake of doping, whatever reason or motivation it is, yes, you've got to be accountable for what you've done wrong from the sporting sense, but I think there should be also a pathway of redemption for athletes to be able to help learn from their mistakes and move on as well. If I was to be, I've been accountable for some of my mistakes in life, but if that was to be held against me for the rest of my life, I would question whether that's fair or not. So, I think the doper per se, they should be just as entitled to be exposed to ways so they can learn from it and move on themselves.

      You mentioned, another issue is, like you said, Richie Porte. I know he was devastated when he crashed out for the second year in a row in the Tour de France and he actually had last year's Tour de France, he crashed out in a spectacular crash down a mountain descent which fortunately he wasn't more seriously injured. One of the most horrific crashes I've seen. And he was able to come to terms with that type of crash better than he was able to come to terms with his fall in this year's Tour de France on stage nine again. And it was some innocuous silly pile up before they'd even reached the first sector of cobblestones that day. He's just tangled up in it, then next thing, he's out of the Tour. It was like a stupid crash of no fault of his own, he just was caught in the mess. There was about 20. And he had much more psychological, it was much more of a challenge for him psychologically to come to terms accepting, that put so much effort into the Tour de France and it just gets thrown down the gurgler just like that.

      FELICITY:

      So quickly.

      RUPERT:

      And he did admit, he said to me, went into a dark area for a while there and it's took him a while. His season, unfortunately, didn't pan out any better by the end of the year. And Richie is a guy who's had a lot of bad luck in his career and in those moments, you can quite easily start to self-question, "What are you doing wrong? Is there a pattern there?" But sometimes it's just fate. You have to pick yourself up.

      The main thing though is Richie identifying, this is what I saw out of it. Him identifying that he was in a dark place. Not trying to bottle it up and hide it. He put it out on the table. And that's the first step with anything, I think, Felicity, is you can just put it on the table, then you can make advances. And he's so in the courage to actually admit it as well. Inspire others.

      FELICITY:

      Yes absolutely. When you place such a big, your focus and energy, it's all around one event in a year. So, there's all the lead-up to it, there's massive preparation in getting your body ready, isn't there. The races that you commit to, everything is structured around that, those three weeks. So, there's a big domino effect and then it also, as he said, it affects your family, but also your team. I was reading about some of the teammates and they have to refocus as well, because they were all focused and set on supporting him. So, then that changes the dynamic. So obviously there's a lot of repercussion, I think a ripple effect from that event and that accident. Yeah, it's really a cause for a lot of self-reflection and resetting yourself, to get yourself back on track, so I can totally understand that. Especially when you're, yeah, it's a huge focus. Obviously even if you didn't win it, you kind of want to get a better result than actually having to exit out so dramatically.

      RUPERT:

      Exactly. Even, you just touched on it there, his teammates. Nobody would actually blame Richie for that, but certainly, with a whole organisation having put in so much, basically a whole season up 'til then to prepare for this moment, they believe that you can do it. If they didn't believe you could do it, they wouldn't invest all the time and energy in putting every resource behind one person. And those resources are his teammates as well. Like Simon Gerrans, he admitted that he struggled with it after that crash, and it's nothing personal against Richie, but he did admit it was hard to suddenly refocus and try and find something. When you've committed mentally to one objective, you don't go in with a plan B, because you have to put everything into that plan A. Do you know what I mean? To succeed.

      FELICITY:

      That's right.

      RUPERT:

      And suddenly you're in the midst of one third in the Tour de France and you're saying, "What do we do now?" The same thing, another Australian, Simon Clarke, who rode on the EF Education First Drapac team, their Colombian leader, Rigoberto Uran, who was a contender as well, he crashed out and Simon Clarke admitted that he'd struggled with trying to refocus, find a new mental pathway for the rest of the Tour. A long way to go when you're on stage nine or in the first week and you’ve got two weeks to go.

      FELICITY:

      Definitely.

      RUPERT:

      And you’ve lost your main leader.

      FELICITY:

      That’s right. And I mean, they plan out the whole tour so they, I imagine, would leave a certain amount of gas in the tank for certain stages. So you’re really structuring your whole effort around that, so it really does change the game. Doesn’t it?

      RUPERT:

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as a journalist, when you’re reporting on it, it is very interesting to watch. Maybe that’s one of the great things of the Tour de France, to see the athlete do all these challenges. But it’s not always the win at the end of the day, in a stage or who’s got the yellow jersey in Paris. That’s the exciting thing, is that actually sometimes seeing these behind the scenes struggles and how athletes deal with the ups and downs, can be sometimes I’d say, more inspiring.

      FELICITY:

      That’s right.

      RUPERT:

      Because Tour de France wins I’ve been inspired by a lot of other athletes more so through their own personal struggles than necessarily, as I said, who’s in the yellow jersey in Paris.

      FELICITY:

      Yes, the behind the scenes that we don’t get to see and you get to see that.

      RUPERT:

      Exactly.

      FELICITY:

      Well I’d like to thank you, Rupert, for joining us today. It’s been fantastic to have you and hear about your journey. We look forward to your other book coming, that’s due out, that you’re writing and people, our listeners can follow Rupert. They can find you on Insta, Facebook, Twitter at Crossing The Lines Sport but you also have your own Rupert Guinness Insta, Facebook and Twitter as well as Rupert Guinness Ready For The Next Adventure. Which sounds totally exciting, love that topic and the website is also www.crossingthelinesport.com. So, we’ll have all those details in our show notes so people can follow you and also learn more about what you’re doing.

      And I’d really just like to reiterate and thank you once again for joining us today.

      RUPERT:

      No, thank you, Felicity. It’s always a pleasure to talk about things in sport and everything and it’s certainly as I said, I’ve been very privileged and lucky to have had the experience that I’ve had. I enjoy talking about it and even the low moments but the low moments are just experiences that you learn from and help you later, anyway, so not really low either. Are they?

      FELICITY:

      Absolutely.

      RUPERT:

      But I’m easy to find, as you said. I don’t go hiding under rocks.

      FELICITY:

      No.

      RUPERT:

      Anybody can find me pretty easily. That’s great. Thanks, thanks Felicity, for having me.

      FELICITY:

      That’s good to know. Thanks, Rupert.

      Thanks for listening to the All Torque podcast. We'd love it if you would leave us a rating and review on iTunes. This helps us to deliver content you want to hear about. Please take a moment to share it with your friends and family on Instagram and Facebook. I'm Felicity Dales, see you next episode for another story of inspiration and motivation on the All Torque podcast.

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