Episode 14 - Charles Black

  

  

In this episode, we talk to Charles Black, founder and CEO of Cycle Life HQ which is building the world’s bicycle tourism marketplace since 2015.

Cycle Life HQ is the world’s first bicycle tourism platform that provides destinations with a one-stop shop for cycling holidays and tourism.

In this episode we cover: 

  • Charles’ inspiration, goals and journey to building Cycle Life HQ.
  • Factors that affect cycling tourism and the benefits it can bring to a destination and its local communities.
  • The services that the company offers to help local communities and businesses benefit from cycle tourism.
  • How cycling events, infrastructure and experiences attract tourists.
  • Bicycle tourism as a means to discover a new place, beautiful destinations, and understanding and appreciating its local culture.
  • Bike Share making travel more accessible.
  • Countries that are leading the way for cycle tourism.
  • Cycling tourism growth in terms of demographics and cycling segments.
  • The reason why some European insurance companies providing electric bikes to clients.
  • The importance behind the bike tourism industry experiencing 3 times more growth than the bike products industry.
  • Global outlook for bike tourism and what needs to be done to realize this potential.
  • The role of Cycle Life HQ’s platform in the outdoor recreation industry.

 

Links

Transcript:

FELICITY:          

This is episode 14. I have for you today Charles Black, the founder and CEO of CyleLifeHQ, building the world's bicycle tourism marketplace since 2015. CycleLifeHQ is the world's first bicycle tourism platform that provides destinations with a one-stop shop, delivering more heads and beds. This enables you to plan, build and maximize cycling tourism potential in both, either by searching for a trip or listing a ride. It's a platform similar to BikeExchange or Bike Chaser, only for cycling holidays and tourism.

Welcome Charles.

CHARLES:         

Thanks Felicity.

FELICITY:          

You're welcome. Prior to founding CycleLifeHQ, you were working for over 21 years as a market-maker for companies such as Ernst & Young and Extensia as well as starting and selling your own consulting business. What inspired you to start CycleLifeHQ? Tell us about your journey and how it all began.

CHARLES:         

I think like most people we all have a role that we need to do for a variety of reasons. But then we have a secret passion project, and this has been a real secret passion project of mine for about 20 years. It brings together a variety of things that I'm personally committed to and really, really interested in.

The first is around how do communities benefit from active lifestyles? In this case, it's obviously around cycling. How do we get more people out riding a bike? In terms of riding a bike, we look at that and we look at the reason why people do ride bikes and why people don't ride bikes. We all know about the Mammal Brigade, of which I occasionally am one of those. I'm wearing my Lycra. Not a very good look but it is a look that I sometimes frequent.

But that Mammal Brigade is only a really, really small percentage of both people who do ride, but probably more importantly about people who want to ride. I'm really interested in setting up the business and looking at what are the barriers to people getting on their bike and riding, and the key thing that I came across was that in addition to perceived safety issues, communities just find it really, really hard and expensive to list up their ride and importantly to link those rides to economic benefit or economic activity.

The core issue within the industry is really quite simple. If you think about the bicycle product industry, which is the sale of bikes and accessories, that's worth about 33 billion dollars a year, and most people when you think of the bike industry, think about the sale of those bikes and those products. What's really interesting is that the bicycle tourism or the bicycle experience industry is already three times the size, so it's conservatively a hundred billion dollars a year, and that's because ultimately people just enjoy riding bikes and they love the experience of riding those bikes.

But for a variety of reasons that whole issue of bicycle tourism and bicycle experience seems to have been used by many parts of the bike industry, so called because there's been such a strong focus on cycling products. So as a part of founding the business, one of the things that I wanted to do was to really bring to the front the potential for individuals, both from a physical health and a mental health benefit, and also local communities to really benefit and understand what cycle tourism is all about, and how to actively and very quickly and inexpensively get their product up and viewed by the world.

FELICITY:          

Yes, and I think that like you say it actually is a growing part of ... People don't actually realise how much tourism does bring to a town. For instance I know I live near Geelong, so the events manager there focuses on what is the return and if they're closing roads. If there's road closures for an Iron Man event or whatever it is, they really analyse that so they're really clear on their figures and the stats and how many visitors they have to the town and what their average spend is.

Equally so, if it's say more of an actual ride, I don't think all that gets conveyed 'cause they're not as thorough, 'cause really they're possibly volunteers unless it's a little commercial enterprise, but they're not really aware of perhaps even to know how to research that and what the benefits are, so for the town, apart from the actual aspect of the enjoyment and the recreation side as well, so there's just so many factors to it isn't there?

CHARLES:         

Yeah, and I think you've really hit on the key point there is that it's about an individual destination, and at the heart of the issue as to why people don't really understand the benefit of bicycle tourism is that it is destination-focused. What I mean by that is that if you think about the old traditional bicycle industry, you had three bike companies, TRIX, Specialized, and Giant, who equate to about 70% of the market share. Most cyclists would know that.

But if you then think about the bicycle tourism industry, there hasn't been that consolidation because it's physically almost impossible to consolidate the three or four brands. Because there are thirty thousand, a hundred thousand different destinations around the world that have cycling activities and have that opportunity, and it really is that fragmented nature of local communities which has done two things.

One means that it hasn't had a clear industry voice, because unlike the bicycle product industry we've got three or four big players. They can work together and promote the industry. But because the bicycle tourism industry is so fragmented, it really hadn't had the ability to really pull together and to really focus on what the benefits are and make that clear to Government.

One of the things that I was really committed to was really to look at what is the best practice around the world for bicycle tourism websites and also mobile sites, and make it really, really simple and inexpensive for communities to do that. Basically, we created some technology that reduced the average cost of creating a really engaging modern feature-rich destination site for cycle tourism.

Used to cost anywhere from fifty to a hundred thousand dollars and then you'd have to maintain it year after year. People's commitment dragged. And then it was very expensive to introduce new features. So we've reduced that from fifty to a hundred thousand dollars to about five thousand dollars for a small community, and what we've also done is reduced the time that it takes from months to literally days.

The whole purpose of that is, as I said, to make it easier, less expensive, so less barriers to entry for communities to really benefit from bicycle tourism, but we also built in an inbuilt marketplace, so local businesses, be they cafes, cycle-friendly cafes, or cycle-friendly accommodation or places to hire your bike and also list their businesses on that local destination website so that they can start to generate money.

Often times in local communities, residents look at it and say, "Well, what's in it for us?" Well, if local people in those communities are benefitting financially from bicycle tourism, it's really, really clear that there are not only benefits from having great trails and places to ride, but also that it's bringing tourists into that community.

FELICITY:          

Yes, and also access perhaps for those communities to use them throughout the rest of the year when it's not peak season for instance, like the Tour Down Under obviously attracts thousands of interstate and possible overseas tourists. I think that has really opened up the wine region more and more even though obviously it was popular beforehand. I know Bike Essay have a multitude of various events that they do really well with, more intimate tours and group rides, so on Kangaroo Island and the Mawson Trail and things like that, that ultimately I think also it reminds people how beautiful those areas are and they come back to them.

Like the Great Ocean Road and the Amy Gillett Foundation having their Gran Fondo there, and like you say they do have to close the roads for that particular event, so they do have to justify what monetary value that brings to the town, and hopefully if they do improve any of the, either roads or the tracks, that also benefits the community afterwards where they can ride on those tracks from then on. We have the mountain bike area at the back of Lorne Forest, but that's become very popular, and yeah. I think if the infrastructure goes in a little bit, not full on, but it encourages the locals, but for the tourism and even weekenders, doesn't it?

CHARLES:         

Yeah, absolutely, and the way that I try to encourage people to think about bicycle tourism is that you've got a very, very, very small percentage of people who would participate in formal rides and races. It's about 4% of the market. The much bigger market is people who, dare I say, might be a little bit built like me. I'm not exactly svelte. I've enjoyed a good life so I'm not exactly an athlete, but what I do love doing is just viewing a city or a community or a destination on bike. I just like to ride around, experience the history and the culture of the community. You can start to develop things such as, and you're talking about the wineries.

You know the Shiraz trail is a great example where it's a self-guided ride and it's got a start and it's got a finish and it's got a range of really good things to do. Obviously centering around wineries, to really understand and appreciate the local culture. Similarly in cities around the world, we're currently working with Tucson, Arizona and we've designed for them a curated art ride around the city. That showcases some of the really good street art and natural pieces of art around Tucson, Arizona. It's some of those really community-based, simple to access, easy to ride, but really interesting experiences that really benefit communities.

You can think of it, bicycle tourism is nothing particularly out of the ordinary. It's simply another way to experience a destination’s assets, so traditionally you would walk or get on a tour bus or you can get in a car. This is just about getting on a bike and doing it.

The results are already in. It is absolutely proven that it is having a transformational effect not just in Australia but all around the world in terms of regenerating local communities. There's a community down in Tasmania called Blue Derby. Its economy is totally built around mountain biking, and it's suffered from mine closures and it made some investments into mountain bike trails and it's really benefitting in terms of growing new businesses and new jobs.

All that being said, you don't necessarily have to pour millions and millions and millions of dollars into new trails or facilities. Often times communities have already got a really good basic tourism product, and it's just about adding a bicycle overlay to that. It's just about creating those curated rides, mapping those out, and exposing those to tourists. With the advent of e-bikes, electric bikes, it's becoming increasingly easier and more accessible for people to go on bike rides. For many people, if you can hire an e-bike, it's a fantastic experience 'cause it means that you don't need to be a super athlete. You can just enjoy visiting that city or that destination on a bike and it is made a lot more accessible for people.

FELICITY:          

And we've also got the bike share. I've noticed now that it's becoming more popular and predominant in the cities, which is also another avenue where people can actually test it out perhaps just in the city and see how they feel a bit more locally and then go and travel from there, 'cause that's actually really fun and just so accessible where you can kind of pick it up and drop it off and go on your way and you're not actually having to become part of the traffic and congestion.

CHARLES:         

Yeah, coming back to the earlier theme of street art, I’ve been in Melbourne recently and I noticed that bicycle share and street art is coming together where lots of bicycles up in trees.

FELICITY:          

Lots of creating.

CHARLES:         

On a serious note, absolutely. And it comes back to the basic point is that the bike industry is not about the bike. The bike industry is about the experience that you have on a bike.

FELICITY:          

Yes.

CHARLES:         

It's about that passion, that first time you're actually on a bike and you thought, "Wow! Isn't this fun."

One of my best bike experiences was in London, and people say, "Oh, bicycling is dangerous," and yeah. It can be dangerous. So can getting out of bed in the morning and tripping over and falling over. There's all sorts of things that can be dangerous. But what London invested in is ten super cycle highways throughout London, and you can do things like in the middle of peak hour, Tower Bridge, and my best experience ever was going on a small group guided ride, so it was four people exploring basically London for four hours.

You can just see so much more than if you were walking or on a bus, because the guide can say, "Right. What are you interested in?" I said, "Well, I have an archeology background so I'm really interested in Roman Britain," so he took me through some of the areas of London where they had not just museums but streets and protected parts of those streets, having a look at some of the early Roman Britain settlements.

So you can really tailor it and get inside the city. You can get off the beaten path and have a look at all those things that are really, really interesting. And you can travel so far on a bike in the city.

FELICITY:          

Absolutely and see so much more, and I agree. It's very immersive. I've done that overseas, and even here I've been over the West Gate I think on Around the Bay in a day, and that was really exhilarating, and over the Sydney Harbour Bridge for a different ride. Yeah, it's really fun actually. It's really uplifting and you can still remember it and you just feel that exhilaration, so I agree with you. It's very immersive and it's a great experience.

CHARLES:         

You talk about the exhilaration and people say, "Oh, bicycle tourism, surely there's not that much money in it," because at the end of the day you know people are on bicycles and they're not in cars and that's why well, let's just wind back that logic a bit.

First up is bicycle tourists bicycle. They're on a bike, hence they get hungry and they get thirsty. You're a lot hungrier and thirstier riding a bike than frankly driving a car.

The second is that they stay longer in a destination, because unlike a car, we can just drive straight through. You are going at a much slower pace, and it gives you the opportunity to notice different things in a local area and just stop off and enjoy. That often times results in having an extra cup of coffee, buying some souvenirs. That's how it's really generating the benefits for local communities, and the latest figures is cycle tourists spend approximately 40% more per day than average tourists.

 It is really transforming many communities around the world, and the thing that really got me into setting up the business, which is probably your first question, was how do we make that easier, simpler and cheaper for people and for communities to do? At the end of the day, it took a fair bit of work to get our platform up and running, but now that we've got it there, the entry point now is really, really inexpensive for communities and for destinations.

FELICITY:          

Fantastic. Is there a particular country that is leading the way for cycling tourism?

CHARLES:         

Yes, it's interesting. There’s probably, if you look at it globally, probably Europe overall, particularly continental Europe probably got the best reputation and the best set of infrastructure and the most established bicycle tourism routes in the world. I think certainly places around France and Germany have got really, really well established bicycle tourism activities.

Then when we look at bicycle tourism at a little bit more granular level, you have mountain bike tourism, so probably the leading place in the world is Whistler in Canada, and it's really interesting. Whistler in Canada, it's known as the largest winter ski area in the world, so the most visited but they actually have more mountain bikers in summer than they have skiers in winter, to give you an idea of the relativity.

Certainly, from the mountain biking perspective, there are many great places. We mentioned Blue Derby, Whistler is also obviously a fantastic place.

You then have road riding, and typically that's dominated globally by places in Italy and obviously draw card of the Tour de France, where you have whole tour groups that go in advance of the tour and do parts or all of those rides that the professionals are doing. From a road riding perspective, those are probably some of the leading places.

Then, because the industry's so fragmented, there are so many amazing places to ride in Australia and right across the world. In Australia, particularly Victoria has really embraced rail trails as a way to really explore some of the inland parts of Australia.

When I mention Australia, probably my number one favourite place to ride is pretty close to Australia, called New Zealand, and New Zealand is an absolute cycling mecca. It had maybe a little bit more foresight in terms of understanding and benefitting from bicycle tourism. I also think because it's a lot smaller land mass that it has been easier for them to set up and into investing in infrastructure. They also had a very strong marketing focus around pure New Zealand, so about the outdoors, the healthy lifestyle, the natural beauty in New Zealand.

There are Queenstown, Otago rail trails. There are some fantastic places to ride in New Zealand, and there are many, many different sorts of experiences that you can have there, so I can go there. I think those are probably my highlights globally.

FELICITY:          

I was wondering that, and New Zealand I remember that marketing campaign and it was fantastic. It was awesome imagery. It was very inspiring and who wouldn't want to go over there? I can understand that. Is there a particular style of cycling tourism growing more than another? For example, mountain bike compared to road riding or the canal style rides available with cruises? What about age groups? With our aging population is cycling tourism growing in a particular demographic or is it across the board?

CHARLES:         

Lots of questions there. I'll pick off one at a time. In terms of demographics, there's most certainly a growing group as the baby boomers come into retirement. There is a clear growing segment in that space. Typically that is in the road cycling area, but also increasingly what we're seeing, particularly with the advent of speed bikes, electric bikes, that couples and groups get together and what used to be sort of inaccessible rides, of 100 kilometres a day, are now becoming accessible because of the advent of electric bikes. There are lots of guided tours and tours now that is a really good growing market.

Probably the number one growing market is actually in the millennials. I think the figure in the U.S. is that by 2022 there are going to be a hundred million millennials in the U.S., and unlike the baby boomers, their definition of what they really wanted around experiences. What they're looking for is authentic experiences out in nature and really enjoying that sort of a lifestyle. That is the biggest booming market at the moment in terms of demographics, and I think it's the one that's got some of the biggest hope.

In terms of the actual segments around mountain biking or road riding or specialist events, our advice to destinations is really around making sure that you understand what you're good at and what is high potential for your area. Because you don't want to be master of some and not too good in others and you just offer everything up to everyone and people get this experience. It's much better to work out what is your core area. As you said, you can do barge and bike, so that's one of the cruise commissions. Specific mountain biking maybe targeting family mountain biking as opposed to elite mountain biking. Is it that you're focusing in on the nature history or craft breweries in an area? And just to pick that particular area and really build that area out. Build really good experiences, word of mouth both within your community and outside of the community, and that's how you build it.

There probably isn't one segment that's growing. It's more about destinations, understanding what they're actually good at and what they're not good at. To that point, one of the things that we did was to create a, and it's no cost to people, but we created an online assessment tool where people with destinations can go in and rate their own perception of rides and their local businesses, and that helps them benchmark where they are against other communities in the world and gives them a bit of an indication of where some of their relative strengths might be. I think that really is the key point. Focus on what you're good at, what you think is going to lead to a really good customer experience, and then build from that base.

FELICITY:          

Absolutely, and it just goes to show from what you've said that really age is no barrier. It doesn't matter. We all love it! It doesn't matter whether you're a millennial or a baby boomer. It's good for all of us and it's great that they're experiencing it at such a younger age really and enjoying it.

CHARLES:         

Yeah, absolutely. And the good thing is it's not just about the visitors. It's one of the few industries that has not only benefits for visitors in a destination, but obviously residents who can also partake, and just about being active. Just getting out there. It reduces pollution, improves mental health, it improves fitness, it lowers the health bill. It's really interesting, and I'll give you an example.

In Europe there are some insurance companies at the moment that are providing free electric bikes to their members and upgraded every two years if that person meets a number of conditions around number of miles that they ride, and they're doing that because they understand that the approximately $4,000 investment in that electric bike will have far greater health benefits than the cost of that bike in itself. It just goes to show you that if at the end of that day the economists have worked out that getting people more active is going to decrease the health bill, and companies are prepared to invest up front and in advance, then it is pretty simple in terms of the benefits both for residents and also for businesses.

FELICITY:          

Yeah, that's incredible actually. You've been quoted as saying that the bicycle tourism industry is three times the size of the bike product industry. Why is this important?

CHARLES:         

I think the key thing is for communities to really understand that they do have an asset, or many communities have got an asset there that can really benefit their local community, be they residents or be they visitors, and it can bring in new wealth, so new jobs, new income for local businesses, and can also increase the livability of that local area. The importance is when people think about the bike industry that they think about the experiences that people have on bikes and not just the sale of bikes. That's one of the key things.

One of the interesting things for the actual product industry is that, and I think there are companies such as Trek that understand this, is that they really need to focus in and Trek are focusing on, on the actual quality of the experience. And not just targeting white males between 35 and 55 as your only target group, but it is cycling for everyone. It's about the experiences that people have, and the more that that message of cycling is all about the experience and the fun on the bike, not necessarily the product, the more the bikes will be sold.

Because it's really interesting. Some of the industry dynamics in the bicycle product industry have been that there's been many bike companies have been closing and there's has been in many areas a slowing in the sale of bikes, and my position on that is because there's been too much of a focus on the product and not enough focus on what people really want. And what people really want is to enjoy themselves on the bike. So I think bike companies, by really focusing on helping communities to understand and to benefit from experiences, can actually really help drive the demand for bicycles.

FELICITY:          

What is the global outlook for bike tourism and what needs to be done to realise that potential?

CHARLES:         

I think we have achieved part of that. The first thing is to make it much easier for communities to understand what their bicycle tourism product is, what it could be, and then to very simply create a way to expose those rides and to expose those local businesses globally. To the best of our knowledge, we're the first company that's really created what I call a bicycle tourism one-stop shop and also the outdoor recreation one-stop shop, but within literally a week or two we can document both local businesses and those ride and expose them to the world community, and that in itself is a really revolutionary breakthrough, because what it does, it addresses that core problem I spoke about before that there are up to 30,000 different bicycle tourism brands around the world, and it makes it easier for those smaller destinations and indeed those medium to large sized destinations, and to get their product presented professionally and to expose those to businesses. I think that's one of the key things that had to occur.

Other than that, I think it's almost an unstoppable wave at the moment because communities are benefitting, and the more that residents and people see the benefits that are coming from bicycle tourism, the more that it will continue to grow. We have seen growth in our operations, South America, North America, Southeast Asia, of course Australia and New Zealand, we've got now some sites in Russia that have opened up, and it's simply because it's such a great thing. It's good for the economy, it's good for physical health, it's good for the health bill, it's good for local businesses. There aren't too many drawbacks from it.

FELICITY:          

No. It ticks a lot of boxes doesn't it?

CHARLES:         

Yeah, absolutely.

FELICITY:          

Bicycle tourism is one part of the broader outdoor recreation industry, as you mentioned, your platforms focusing on cycling and there is the bigger recreation aspect to it as well. What is your platform's role in that?

CHARLES:         

We've obviously got CycleLifeHQ and we're building out AdventureLifeHQ and just to give you an idea of the size, in the United States ... I'm trying to put these numbers into perspective ... The outdoor recreation industry is worth 860 billion dollars. People say, “Is that a big amount or is that a small amount? It sounds a lot, but what is it?” If I told you that that was three times the amount that was spent on education services.

FELICITY:          

Wow.

CHARLES:         

Wow.

FELICITY:          

Big. Yeah. Puts things in perspective, doesn’t it?

CHARLES:         

If you add it up, education services and the sale of fuel, you'd still be less than the value of the outdoor recreation sector. That is how large it is, and our role is really quite simple. It's really to help destinations understand how they can capitalise on the natural assets that they have. That's the understanding piece.

The second piece is to make it quicker and simpler and far less expensive for them to catalogue the experiences and then to market those out to visitors, and we've done that two ways. One through some really quite smart technology that solves a lot of the problems that previously people used to have to engage a web developer to develop something from scratch. We've developed a platform that has a whole range of inbuilt functions. It's got social media sharing. It's got automated ChatBox. It's got inbuilt analytics. It's got videos. It's got photos. It's got raising comments. It's got a whole range of things inbuilt into the platform that a destination doesn't need to have to pay for from scratch. What that really does is reduce that barrier of entry for the community so they don't have to think of, "Well, how do we get $50,000? How do we get $100,000 to do this?" They can do it at a far less expensive price point.

The second thing and probably the most critical thing that we've done is that, what we've built is an inbuilt marketplace so people can actually go in and purchase bike rides or hire bikes or packages, and what we do is we have a revenue share model back with the destinations so that they can reinvest back into the quality of the product.

Part of the whole thinking when I set up the business was if the nature of the problem of the industry is that it's fragmented and communities don't have the money, then how can we create almost a self-fulfilling business model whereby people can invest in a bicycle tour etc., that money goes back locally, we take a very small clip on that, and we then share that back with the community so that they can reinvest back into the quality of those experiences and of those facilities. So really about building the quality of those experiences in communities.

That for me is the really exciting part of what we're doing at a very practical groundwork level, really helping generate more income for communities so that they can reinvest back into the quality of the experience, and if you improve the quality then more people come, there's better word of mouth, then there's more sold and it's basically a virtuous cycle that we're building out in communities.

FELICITY:          

That's fantastic. I think your platform will be appealing to everyone everywhere as we all want to travel and ride our bikes. I'm sure you can't go wrong with that, Charles.

CHARLES:         

Well, so far so good. It's certainly been a lot of fun. It's a hard job visiting places around the world on a bike, but someone's gotta do it, and unfortunately I've drawn the short straw or probably more appropriately, one of our key staff members, Anna Gurnhill, has been recently in Boulder, Colorado, where she's working with the International Mountain Biking Association, so she unfortunately had to spend a couple of weeks out there, out riding all those beautiful areas, and then she went off to Rio de Janeiro for the Velo-City Conference, and really looking at some of the bicycle tourism and active transport opportunities, and issues associated, certainly in South America but also with Velo-City, which is a really large conference, of active transport, where people obviously with a bicycle focus worldwide.

FELICITY:          

That sounds fantastic and what a lucky job she's got.

CHARLES:         

Absolutely.

FELICITY:          

Well, I'd like to thank you for joining us today, and I'd like to let our listeners know where they can find you so that they can plan their next holiday and such or if they're wanting to host a cycling destination or tourism event. It would be best for them to go and check out your website on www.CycleLifeHQ.com or visit your Facebook and Instagram page at CycleLifeHQ, so I encourage all our listeners to check it out because I'm sure that you'll have a long to-do list after checking out Charles' websites. How could you not?

CHARLES:         

Thanks Felicity, and also so that the public-facing side, which is where cyclists and visitors go to for any destinations out there. We've also got one, www.tourism.CycleLifeHQ.com. That's more for destinations who are looking to understand how to get into the bicycle tourism game and how to build their assets and build up their offerings and expose those to the world.

FELICITY:          

Yes, lovely.

CHARLES:         

If I can, just the last thing is ... I could mention it. It's a charity that were involved with which is called World Bicycle Relief, and World Bicycle Relief, is a charity that basically provides industrial-strength bikes to developing nations, because often times one of the biggest barriers to development, both economic and social development, and particularly amongst women in developing countries, is their access to opportunities. To education or also to economic opportunities.

World Bicycle Relief basically provides bicycles. It provides maintenance, it provides training to local communities to really help liberate them, and there are some amazing stories globally of the profound impact of bicycles have had on those local communities. If anyone is interested, have a look at World Bicycle Relief. It's also another wonderful organisation.

FELICITY:          

Yes, that's fantastic. I'll do look that up actually 'cause I'm interested in that for Body Torque, so that's awesome. Thanks for mentioning that. I think our listeners would love to know about that as well.

CHARLES:         

Great.

FELICITY:          

Thank you for joining us today Charles. It's been fascinating and I'm looking forward to seeing your website progress and also going on a holiday somewhere, so I'll be..

CHARLES:         

Fantastic.

FELICITY:          

..letting people know, and I really wish you all the best.

CHARLES:         

Thanks a lot for your time, Felicity.

FELICITY:          

You're welcome.

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